Minister Antonio Tajani, what has changed following Prime Minister Meloni’s statements in Parliament and the Supreme Defence Council?
“We have sent a message to the opposition. We will continue to keep them informed, even though they have refused to engage in dialogue. We have shown willingness to involve everyone in foreign policy. This is a situation that concerns all Italians; it is not just a matter for the majority.”
The Financial Times wrote that the government is in open dialogue with Iran to open the Strait of Hormuz to Italian ships.
“There are no secret negotiations to pass through the Strait of Hormuz. I categorically deny this.”
What will you do about the Italian military personnel stationed at bases in the Middle East?
‘We are reducing contingents. But there will always be a presence in Erbil and Kuwait, because we honour our international commitments.’
I am curious about your relationship with Marco Rubio. What do you and the US Secretary of State discuss on the phone?
“I now consider Marco Rubio a friend. I hold him in high regard; he has an impressive political track record and I also appreciate him as a person. I remember when we had dinner with our wives at Villa Madama in Rome: it was an evening where we did not just talk about politics, but also about faith. Rubio is a deeply devout Christian, even from a cultural perspective. And that made a deep impression on me.”
Are you a practising Catholic too? Do you go to church with your wife?
“Yes, we are devoutly practising Catholics.”
Do you think Marco Rubio is a utopian or a realist?
“Rubio is a pragmatist and is loyal to the President of the United States. In my opinion, he is an excellent Secretary of State.”
What language do you speak with Rubio?
“Spanish, when it is just the two of us; English when we are in official settings with our delegations.”
Where did you learn Spanish?
“I learnt it when I was a European Commissioner.”
Rubio takes pride in his Italian roots, doesn’t he?
“Absolutely. He came to visit Italy with a sort of family tree. His family arrived in the United States from Cuba, but we discovered they have roots in Campania, and even ancestors from Casale Monferrato.”
Did you also discuss Cuba with Rubio?
“We need to understand how much longer the regime in Cuba will last.”
Did you have any contact with the Iranian Foreign Minister during the conflict?
“We have not spoken for quite some time. I have always sought to encourage dialogue with the Americans, especially whilst negotiations were underway with Oman, which acted as an intermediary. It was no coincidence that Oman organised one of the meetings in Rome.”
Where did Iranians go wrong?
“They wanted to press ahead with the nuclear programme. That was a huge mistake.”
Do you have any news regarding Iran’s uranium?
“There are confirmed reports: the Iranians had in fact crossed the “red line” on enriched uranium, which means they were aiming for the nuclear bomb. The world cannot afford to have a country with the nuclear bomb that proclaims it wants to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth.”
But was war a last resort, a rational response or an almost unavoidable course of action?
“Israel regarded the Ayatollahs’ regime as a threat to its very existence. And the United States regards Israel as one of its key allies. Therefore, they cannot tolerate Iran possessing nuclear weapons. Bearing this in mind, we have always insisted on the need to find common ground, to negotiate and try to let diplomacy prevail. Since the Americans and Israelis decided to attack, the issue is whether international law was respected or not.”
It was not respected. But by now, international law no longer exists…
“Who is supposed to enforce international law? The United Nations, but within its highest political body, the Security Council, the UN includes a country that has violated and continues to violate international law on a daily basis. Unfortunately, that is the situation. I am a supporter of the United Nations, but perhaps they should have intervened much more decisively when the war in Ukraine broke out. At the time, I proposed appointing two UN envoys, champions of the West but also friends of Putin, namely Angela Merkel and Silvio Berlusconi. They could probably have averted the war. The UN, however, stood still… It needs to make a qualitative leap forward.
What does French President Emmanuel Macron want?
“There is no need to rush ahead. What matters is to strengthen relations between European States. That is what we are doing with Germany, to try to build a more cohesive Europe capable of playing a political role.”
Do you like the German Chancellor, Friedrich Merz?
“Yes, he is a man of great experience.”
It is probably the stronger dialogue between Italy and Germany that is annoying France.
“But if this is the case, it is wrong, because we do not want to exclude anyone. There has always been a strong relationship between Italy and Germany – an axis strengthened over time by the ties between the CDU and the Christian Democrats. And as Forza Italia is now part of the European People’s Party, the link between Germany and Italy runs through that too.”
You mentioned the Christian Democrats. I have been told that you want to reunite the centrists, and you want to revive the so-called “White Whale”?
“The Christian Democrats no longer exist, but it is up to Forza Italia to take up the role of “permanent centre of gravity” in Italian politics that once belonged to the Christian Democrats.”
What are you doing? Are you quoting Franco Battiato and his famous song?
“Of course, Battiato was not just a singer: he was a philosopher, a man of culture, he said exactly what he thought.”
Let us go back to the “grand centre”: is it the centre-right?
“Absolutely. Berlusconi wanted Forza Italia to be the centre of the centre-right. The centre-right is a political alliance, not an electoral cartel. The left-wing parties create electoral alliances: sometimes they find an agreement, sometimes they do not. We always move forward united.”
But you are not just feeling nostalgic for the centre-right led by Berlusconi, are you?
‘No, I am looking to the future and I think we need to strengthen this centre-right. And the centre-right is strengthened by the centre. There is a conservative right led by Giorgia Meloni, and there is the Lega. We need to reach out to those voters who do not go to the polls or have been abandoned by the left-wing parties. Also because, by now, the centre-left is dead and buried; there is only the left component.”
Has anyone from the left-wing parties approached you to join your party?
“Some have already joined us, such as Caterina Chinnici. The same also holds true for many members of the Five Star Movement.”
Anyone from the Democratic Party?
“Some former PD members like Nicola Caputo, who had previously joined Italia Viva. They were all former Christian Democrats: they did not join Forza Italia because we offered them anything, but because they are centrists left orphaned by the centre-left, where Schlein, Conte, Bonelli and Fratoianni are fighting for more space on the left. We see these dynamics at play in the referendum too: how many left-leaning centrists are voting ‘Yes’?
Will you win the referendum?
“I am convinced we will. Between belief and victory, however, there is a lot of work to be done. We will do our outmost to try to win, get voters to the polls and defend the vote at the polling stations.”
You have an event in the pipeline specifically to revitalise the centre, haven’t you?
“On 24 April, we will be holding a major event to mark the 50th anniversary of the European People’s Party. It will take place in Rome, at the Palazzo delle Fontane, where we celebrated Forza Italia’s 30th anniversary.’
Who will be attending?
“We have invited Lupi, Cesa, Steger, Fumarola, and the Christian Workers’ Movement. For now, let us start by reviving the values of European popularism; we will see what happens next. My message is the following: let us engage in a debate on values.”
What happens if you lose the referendum?
“Italy will miss an important opportunity, but nothing will happen to the government, which will be judged in next year’s election. This referendum is the tip of the iceberg of a change aimed at modernising Italy. There are many things that need to be changed: the justice system, bureaucracy, excessive taxation. We are a country that could fly, but has too heavy weight on its wings. This is a first reform to make Italy more modern and European. Those who think this is a reform targeted against judges are mistaken. It is a reform for citizens, unlike what the ‘No’ campaigners say. This is a reform to free magistrates from any political influence. Let us be honest: the factions were created to give the parties representation within the judiciary. In 1946, Togliatti, as Minister of Justice, put into practice what Antonio Gramsci had taught: he sought to occupy all positions of power, including the judiciary. That is the reason why Magistratura Democratica, the magistrates’ faction of the Communist Party, was founded.’
Marina Berlusconi’s commitment in this field clearly follows in her father’s footsteps.
“She is someone who believes in change, in fair justice, and in reforms. Her support and her contribution to our fight for freedom are invaluable to all of us in Forza Italia. Marina embodies the values that her father instilled in her, as he did in all of us.”
Give me one clear reason to go out and vote.
“To change Italy. Starting with the right of citizens to feel protected and not persecuted when they enter a court.”
At one point, there were those who argued that you should have stepped down as Secretary of Forza Italia, but no one has really challenged you. Is Tajani the single man in charge?
“No, absolutely not. There are four deputy Secretaries, three group leaders, a leadership elected at the Congress that works tirelessly, and the results are clear to see. We grow with every election, from the European to the regional ones. When you rush too much, you risk rising and then crashing; I prefer to grow one step at a time with every election. What we are noticing is that this growth is driven by younger voters. I am a great supporter of party Congresses: we have held municipal and provincial Congresses. This year we will hold regional Congresses and, at the start of the election campaign, we will hold the national Congress to choose the party Secretary who will lead Forza Italia into next elections. It is only right that whoever is to lead Forza Italia into next elections should have a clear mandate from the grassroots
Are you telling me that, on the eve of next elections, you will hold a party Congress to give the Secretary a mandate? Will you stand as a candidate to lead the party?
“I will stand as a candidate. I am always in favour of democratic debate with those who criticise me or hold different views. The Secretary of Forza Italia is not Silvio Berlusconi’s heir. The Secretary of Forza Italia is a man or woman who has a moral duty to keep Berlusconi’s values and principles alive. I need to build a party that is completely different from Berlusconi’s. When his charisma was enough to solve all our problems, we could have an appointed leadership. Now that he is no longer with us, we need a leadership chosen by the grassroots. There is huge participation: we have reached 250,000 genuine members. Our rallies are always packed to the rafters and full of young people.”
Do you expect many rivals within the party?
“I do not know, but if so, they are welcome.”
There were many factions within the Christian Democrats. Which Christian Democrat figure inspires you?
“Rather than creating a new Christian Democrat Party, I would like to broaden the centre to include reformists, liberals and socialists. I would like to give political substance to what Berlusconi used to say he wanted: a Christian, liberal, reformist, rights-protecting, Atlanticist, pro-European party.”
So, a centre that is not the heir of the old Christian Democrat Party.
“Exactly. One that certainly draws inspiration from the values of European popularism, but one that is also reformist, rights-protecting and committed to the rule of law. We also want to reach out to Pannella’s Radicals – indeed, the Radical Party is working with us, even though they are not part of the People’s Party – on issues such as justice, human rights and prisons.”
Are you already working on the policy manifesto for your bid for the party leadership?
“Yes, I am thinking about how to update and strengthen the one I presented when I first stood as a candidate. It will also be a manifesto in which I will propose some important reforms for Europe. Even if my allies do not agree, I believe we cannot do without a stronger political Europe, with renewed institutions as well.”
Yesterday there was a rally in Milan in support of the ‘Yes’ vote in the referendum.
“Exactly, whilst this morning we will be in Rome. “Una freccia per il Sì” is an event we organised to unite Italy in spirit to support judicial reform. We want to reaffirm that this is a reform of civilisation to change this country.”
Did you like Prime Minister Meloni’s speech at the Fratelli d’Italia event in Milan on the referendum?
“Yes, we all share the same position; it is a reform we all support and which is part of the centre-right’s programme.”
The former mayor of Milan, Giuliano Pisapia, a left-wing figure with a significant family history in the legal world, has announced he will vote ‘Yes’ in the referendum. Will this carry any weight?
“We worked together with Giuliano Pisapia when I was President of the European Parliament’s Committee on Constitutional Affairs and he was a member. He is a lawyer and therefore understands the reasons behind the reform. He is one of many influential figures on the left who have grasped what is at stake. We are not voting to pass a judgment on the government, but to reform the justice system. And there are many others alongside him: I am thinking of Augusto Barbera, and among judges, I am thinking of Antonio Di Pietro. We need to steer the debate back to the content of the issues: knowing they are going to lose this referendum, the left-wing parties are trying to muddy the waters by talking about politics. But the vote is not about the government. After all, they have been saying for years that we needed to separate judicial careers and introduce a lottery system for selecting CSM members.”
