Minister Antonio Tajani, today you will participate in a summit on Albania with half the government. What is being discussed?
“To decide on how to proceed on the right choice that we confirm and we will have to make operational. I am very impressed by some aspects of the Italian discussion, first of all for the way Albania is discussed: it is a friendly country, a candidate to join Europe. And then I’ll point out that the model is arousing interest, just note the president of the EU Commission or countries such as Poland or Finland.”
However, it doesn’t work. It’s all a dispute with the judges.
“It is not acceptable that they are the ones who establish safe countries. If the judges are the ones to decide, no country in the world is safe. There is little else to be done: it is necessary to speed up the full application of the new “asylum and migration pact” to avoid disputes. In the meantime, there is no reason not to continue pursuing the path we have taken.”
Speaking of judges, doesn’t Salvini’s acquittal prove that the judicial system works?
“The opposite is true: the acquittal says that the fact does not exist, so there is someone who wanted to make a fact exist that does not exist. A classic case of politicisation of some magistrates, even if not of the judiciary as a whole. There is a problem that has to do with the very credibility of the system.”
So: shall we go ahead with the separation of careers, right?
“For us it is an historic battle that goes beyond Salvini’s acquittal. This is why we must speed up the reform of the judicial system. Those who govern must have the opportunity to govern.”
Shall we go ahead also on the civil liability of magistrates as Salvini says?
“That has always been a proposal of Forza Italia.”
Let’s take the bull by the horns on Albania. Landings have decreased with the agreements in Africa. What is the use of an emergency measure?
“The two things are not contradictory. There is Albania and there is Africa with the Mattei Plan, which is the structural response, in fact the agreements with Libya and Tunisia work, and in Niger there are Italian soldiers who help that country against jihadism. A strategy to combat illegal immigration is made up of various interventions.”
Giving Erdogan a billion on immigration is also an emergency response. Where is a European immigration policy?
“I’ll answer you as before. Buffering the emergency, as Angela Merkel did at the time of the 2014 crisis, is necessary. For now, a new crisis has not broken out on that scale, but it is important that Turkey acts as a guarantor to prevent the flight north. All this is not in contradiction with a long-term strategy.”
It is not clear what Europe’s role is.
“Any destabilisation in that region has repercussions in Europe in terms of security. We must guarantee the unity of the country, avoid a migratory collapse, support the civilian population. It seems to me that on this, including the protection of ethnic and religious minorities, Turkey is moving along the same lines.”
Turkey is a NATO country, it participates in the BRICS meeting, it supports Islamist militias, it gives drones to Ukraine but it does not apply sanctions to Russia. Is it stabilisation or chaos?
“Turkey is not destabilising, it is simply acting in its own interests. Europe must act on its own as well. And Italy is moving according to its political vision: we were the first to arrive in Syria to take care of refugees. This is also true for Africa, where we are with the Mattei Plan, and in the Middle East, where we are ready, in the event of a ceasefire, for an Arab-led UN mission with an Italian presence.”
What is your opinion of the provisional government that has taken office in Syria?
“A delegation of high-level Italian diplomats is about to be deployed to Damascus to meet with the new provisional leadership: there are positive signs, but we will follow their action in practice. The sanctions on Syria will be lifted progressively, as their orientation towards an inclusive political transition becomes manifest, towards ethnic and religious minorities and women’s rights.”
Minister, it was clear that with Trump the era of “free security” would end, but there was no impetus on the matter, see the summit in Lapland.
“It would have ended with Kamala too. But it has never been “free”… I would not hang myself on the figure of 3, 4, 5 percent of military spending on the GDP. The need to build the European defence pillar, allied with the United States, is independent of Trump.”
Italy, however, is the country furthest behind on the famous two percent of military spending.
“More money for Defence and compliance with the “Stability Pact” are irreconcilable prospects. This is why we strongly ask to separate spending and go in the direction of common debt and Eurobonds for Defence: Spain, Portugal and the European Commissioner for Defence are also in favour of it. We must continue to work in this direction.”
The issue of security is one with Europe’s political aphonia on Ukraine.
“The support we are giving to Kyiv will allow Ukraine to get on its feet, when it comes, at the peace negotiations. Now we need to work with greater determination on the ceasefire. And at a peace conference with the parties involved, such as the one that was held last July in Switzerland on the initiative of Minister Ignazio Cassis. This time, Russia, China, Brazil and India must participate to achieve the goal.”
However, don’t you think that Ukraine’s entry into Europe should now be accelerated, to give Zelensky a reassurance in view of negotiations?
“Here too, we must be careful. We are ready and it is a fair prospect, but it is a gradual path to be taken while respecting European rules. We will help them, as we are doing with the countries of the Western Balkans, which have been following a path of reform for years. And they will be the first to join the EU.”
Isn’t there a risk that Europe will be bypassed by a Trump initiative?
“I don’t think so. On the contrary, I think that, without being united, America and Europe cannot do anything for peace in Ukraine. We cannot divide the West. History teaches us this. And here there is room for the Italian government, in the role of bridge with the United States: the good relations between Meloni and Trump help.”
Well, the Italian government is the most stable and strongest in Europe. Why don’t you turn this stability into protagonism?
“What we said about European Defence is valid here too. It is time for a leap in the direction that, as Forza Italia, we have been advocating for some time: a United States of Europe, an end to the veto power, powers of legislative initiative of the European Parliament. Only in this way can it stand firm in the face of global challenges. At the appropriate time I will raise the issue within the government.”
Is this an invitation to your allies to have more courage?
“Look, we’ve entered a phase where we can’t keep whinging and complaining… The new American presidency must be experienced as a positive challenge, for Europe and for Italy. We will have to take that leap that has been talked about for years. Or it will be a really dangerous leap backwards.”
