“Decisive meeting today in Morocco. The Ukrainian crisis? We need to place our bets on the ceasefire and the withdrawal of heavy weaponry”.
“There was no ‘mess’ over Palestine. The government has a balanced position, understood at the international level”
by Cesare Martinetti
Just a few weeks to defuse the prospect of “total war” in Libya, as referred to recently at the United Nations, according to the “behind-the-scenes” situation reconstructed yesterday by La Stampa. We’re discussing this with Foreign Minister Paolo Gentiloni just a few minutes after his conversation with the mediator, Bernardino León. Today, for the first time, all of the parties in the conflict will sit down together at the negotiating table. Also today, Prime Minister Matteo Renzi – the first Western leader to visit since the Nemzov murder – will be meeting Vladimir Putin at the Kremlin. Two interwoven and overlapping crises.
Minister Gentiloni, what proposals will León be bringing to the Libyans’ table?
“He’ll propose a protocol of agreement concerning security and the formation of a government of national unity with a prime minister and two deputy premiers. Proposals and names will need to emerge from the meeting. The situation has become even more complicated, if that were possible. We have some grounds for hope in that the use of ISIS flags on what might be termed a ‘franchise’ basis, rather than any penetration from the outside, has, paradoxically, given new scope for the political process. Just a few weeks ago – when we were forced to close our embassy – it would have been unrealistic to imagine all parties in Libya sitting down together at the same table, as I hope will happen today in Morocco”.
But the West seems divided: some support Tripoli, others Tobruk. Why is that?
“No, we’re all starting from the same position: an acknowledgement that the Tobruk Parliament has its own democratic legitimacy, but does not control the entire country. That’s why we’re talking about national unity, so that the groups in southern and western Libya who don’t identify with Tobruk can also be involved”.
According to yesterday’s reconstruction in La Stampa, by Paolo Mastrolilli, the United Nations are evaluating a sea blockade to prevent trade in contraband oil and at the same time control the seas off Italy. What do you think about that?
“Good diplomatic practice is to discuss the alternative options only when the wager has been lost. Right now, the Italian government is working with the Libyans and the other countries with a role in this crisis, such as Egypt and Algeria, to ensure that Morocco produces a good outcome. We’re not talking about “plan B” or fall-back options. Tomorrow [ed.’s note: today] will see a crucial meeting”.
Are you confident that the UN can really take effective action, given that it’s paralysed by the divisions in the Security Council?
“I’ll answer that by paraphrasing Churchill’s comment on democracy, which I recently heard a former Australian prime minister quote with regard to the UN: it’s the worst system, except for all the others. And there’s no alternative solution”.
Minister, you were in Tehran a few days ago, meeting President Rohani, Foreign Minister Zarif and other Iranian leaders, including Rafsanjani. What is Italy’s role in the nuclear talks? We’re not sitting at the official table.
“We’re trying to make a contribution to facilitate the negotiations, something that we’re in a position to do, in close contact with the USA, thanks to our long-standing relations with Iran. We working for a positive agreement that would also have interesting ‘side effects’: to the campaign against ISIS and to an expansion of our export market. However, engaging Iran in monitoring its civil nuclear programme and building on its current more moderate stance is hugely important in itself, quite apart from terrorism and economic relations”.
What are the key reasons to believe in this agreement?
“Let me ask you a question: is it in the West’s interests to place its bets on Rohani and the people in Iran who are working on the negotiations, or to look back with nostalgia to Ahmadinejad? While I perfectly understand Netanyahu’s motives and Israel’s concerns, I think that Obama is right”.
Even at the cost of isolating the government in Jerusalem?
“We’re one week away from the elections and, even if concerns about Iran are real, in the eyes of public opinion in a great democracy like Israel, we need to look to the future. We mustn’t make the mistake of halting a process that will lead either to a successful conclusion, with an improvement in the situation, or to a marked deterioration. We cannot return to the starting blocks – the situation is more difficult, and more dangerous, than it was 2 years ago”.
Italian foreign policy is often viewed as ambiguous and cunning, as shown by the mess over the recent parliamentary motion on Israel-Palestine. What is the government’s position?
“I take the exact opposite view – there was no mess, but a balanced position by Italy, a position that is understood perfectly well at the international level and is in line with the European Parliament. That position, essentially, is to urge the government to recognise a Palestinian state and at the same time to kick-start negotiations by the parties concerned. If anyone can tell me of another way to achieve recognition for the Palestinian state, I take my hat off to them”.
But on the Ukrainian crisis, too, we’ve given the impression that we’re occupying the middle ground, and have attracted suspicions that we’re too soft with Putin.
“In diplomatic jargon we use the expression ‘double-track’. Which in our case has taken the form, firstly, of firmness with Russia. Italy has never shied away from sanctions, indeed I would add that we tend to apply them even more rigorously than other countries”.
Which ones?
“I won’t say which. But we don’t take lessons from anybody. At the same time, we’ve always called for the road of dialogue with Russia to be kept open. Translated into the current situation, that means we must place our bets on this ceasefire, through which the heavy weaponry is being withdrawn. The road ahead is very complicated, but that doesn’t mean that every time we meet we need to decide on new sanctions”.
But do you really think that this conflict can be resolved? Moscow views Ukraine as part of its history and system, and all of Putin’s policy is designed to rebuild its old sphere of influence.
“I think that we shouldn’t be looking to the narratives of the last century. Donbass isn’t Sudetenland, and the present-day confrontation between NATO and Russia is not a new version of the cold war. Suffice to consider that the next NATO summit will take place in the building where the Warsaw Pact was signed. I don’t know what Putin wants, I assume his aim is to exercise a decisive influence. We need to reassure our NATO allies, especially the Baltic countries, and defend Ukraine’s territorial and economic integrity, without bringing it into NATO”.
Not even the European Union?
“Ukraine has an association agreement with the EU, rather than accession in the near future. We need to impress upon Russia that we have no aggressive intent, but are utterly determined to defend the international rules. This mix of firmness and reassurance is the essence of the diplomatic efforts of Merkel, Hollande and Prime Minister Renzi, who’s in Moscow right now”.
The murder of Boris Nemzov – whoever was responsible – tells us that democratic normality is still a far-off prospect. How many sacrifices of human lives can be accepted in diplomacy?
“Contrary to our hopes in the 1990s, we are not living today in a calm and peaceful world. Today’s world requires us to have relations with countries that do not respect rights to the same degree as we do. It’s right to talk to Putin, as the ‘Normandy format’ leaders have been doing. But we need to reiterate at the same time that Italy is against the death penalty and promotes free expression, in Tehran as in Moscow”.
